Lobcast Podcast: Marketing Metrics & Margaritas

STEPHANIE: Hello and welcome to the Lobcast Podcast: Mixers and Marketing. I'm Stephanie Donelson, your hostess with the marketing mostess, and I'm the senior content marketing manager here at Lob. I'm thrilled to be joined yet again with Samantha Braverman, our demand generation manager. Sam, do you mind introducing yourself to any new listeners we might have out there?

SAM: Sure thing. Thanks for having me back, Stephanie. As you just mentioned, I am on the management team here at Lob and I'm responsible for our top-of-funnel marketing campaigns. I'm super excited to dive in today's topic and this margarita thing.

STEPHANIE: Thank you for joining us today. So listeners, if you want to make the complimentary cocktail for this episode, which is a Margarita, you're going to need 3 ounces of tequila, two ounces of lime juice, one ounce simple syrup, a teaspoon of orange liqueur and a tablespoon of kosher salt. You're going to run a lime wedge around the rim of your glass and then dip the rim into the sugar or the salt mixture to salt your rim. And then you're going to combine the tequila, lime juice, simple syrup and orange liqueur in a cocktail shaker, add ice, shake until chilled and then pour into the prepared glass. So cheers and welcome back to the show, Sam.

SAM: Cheers!

STEPHANIE: So today we're going to be talking about a topic that many marketers love metrics. As marketers, we have to both be creative and analytical in order to use our creative side. We have to know how to interpret our marketing metrics to understand what the data is telling us about our campaigns performance. So Sam, I'd love to kick off this episode by talking about marketing channels we all rely on in this day and age. Digital channels. What digital marketing channels do you think are the most important that marketing teams should be focusing on?

SAM: It's a good question, but I think before deciding which channels to utilize, I think it's important to take a step back and determine, you know, your budget and goals and then take a look at who you're trying to get in front of and determine which channels are going to get you in front of those people. So, you know, if your budget is tight, you might want to consider free channels and I put it in air quotes. I know nothing in life is for free, but you could try organic social, you know, TikTok is all the rage right now. LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook, you name it. You can also try email. A lot of people have email, so it's easy to reach them that way. But if you have more budget, you could experiment with things like PPC or display ads. There are so many options. You can be creative and really try anything, but when it comes down to it, most roads lead back to your website. So I'd say making sure your website is optimized and in good condition is probably a good place to start before you go crazy on other channels.

STEPHANIE: I love that. I completely agree. I think your website is your number one sales tool is your number on marketing tool. You own everything about it. That content stays with you, it moves with you. Whereas if TikTok disappears, there goes some of your content from it. So it's very important that we focus on our website as a digital marketing channel. But let's move on and talk about the topic of the hour: metrics. Sam, what are some metrics that you use to evaluate the performance of your demand gen campaigns, let's say specifically in online channels?

SAM: Yeah depending on the channel, I want to look at different things, so I'll just start rattling some stuff off, if that's OK, Stephanie. So for email, I like looking at things like open rates, click through conversions on subscribes for paid advertising. I might want to look at impressions, click through rates, CPC. I do a lot of webinars for those I look at attendee versus registration numbers, meetings booked stage zero, stage one, ops bookings. I mean, the list goes on. We could probably just rattle things off for like five minutes straight, but those are the initial things that pop up in my mind.

STEPHANIE: And I think it goes back to what you said at the beginning of the podcast, that it really depends on the marketers' goals. That's going to change a lot about what metrics you're really paying attention to. But I'm going to pose a controversial question to you. If you had to say that one metric was more important than the other. I'm going to narrow it down. Let's say we're comparing cost per acquisition, CPA or return on investment, ROI. Which would you pick and why?

SAM: Putting me on the spot. But I think I would say ROI and that's because if I want to take a look at the health of a campaign or a tactic for me personally, a more holistic picture would be painted by looking at the ROI of the campaign.

STEPHANIE: No, I definitely agree. I think there are areas where obviously you do want to be watching CPA pretty closely, especially going back to those paid channels, especially Google ads, social media ads. You don't want to be spending a ton of money on those ads and not acquiring those customers. But I think you and I are aligned like I think our ROI is the much better metric looking at the whole campaign because people are going to interact with it very differently on different channels. And so I think return on investment gives you a much broader perspective of did that campaign work or not?

SAM: Exactly.

STEPHANIE: What about tools or software? What are your go-tos for pulling metrics and measuring campaign performance, even if they're not ones that we use here at Lob?

SAM: When I'm looking at overall high-level campaign performance. So things like again, meetings, booked opportunities, bookings, I like to pull that data in Salesforce. I think it's just more readily available there. But when I'm reporting on certain on how certain tactics are performing, I like to use Marketo because I can get a more granular view of the data. But in an ideal world, we pull it all together into some sort of dashboard, maybe in Tableau or tell remind, so that we can see the whole picture. You know how each tactic is contributing to the larger picture.

STEPHANIE: I have spent many an hour looking at market reports and then comparing it to Google Analytics, comparing it to my own Excel spreadsheets. So again, I think we're all in the same boat that we spend a lot of time looking at the data and reports. But what kind of reports do you pull to generate benchmarks to measure future success against?

SAM: Yeah I mean, this could go a lot of different ways. So I'm going to focus this on like email reporting and benchmarking, mostly because that's top of mind for me. And I look at those reports a lot and did earlier today, but when I want to look at email benchmarks, I pull an email performance report in Marketo that looks at email performance over a certain period of time. But one thing I will know, it's important to compare apples to apples because, you know, you don't want to compare an email that went out to your active audience versus your inactive audience because your results are going to be different, and that's OK. But the data can be misleading if you read it without context. So just making sure that when you are pulling those benchmarks, you're benchmarking certain variables. So things don't kind of get muddied, you know?

STEPHANIE: No, I love that. And I agree. I mean, as someone who has worked in social media for so long, telling people engagement rates on social media just makes me want to die inside sometimes because we compare it to email, where it's like 30% and like we had 4%. Like, it just sounds so low, but in context, that's a pretty good number. So just making sure that when you're having those conversations potentially like with your CMO, you are contextualizing that data so that you're both understanding what it's actually saying. And again, just kind of creating those benchmarks on your own team of no, this campaign actually did really well. Or you can quickly identify like, oh, that has an open rate of 11%, something is wrong. But talking about the data that goes back to the channels that data is coming from. So do you think there are any digital channels that you think marketers should invest more in, whether that's time or money?

SAM: Yeah I feel like I keep saying this, but it depends on, I'd say, your goals and again, how your audience engages with those channels. So my recommendation would be to test all sorts of channels before investing heavily in one over another. My personal approach would be experiment, iterate and draw data driven conclusions before investing heavily in one single channel. But also, if you run a test to determine that a channel is not working for you at that moment, I wouldn't completely scrap it, maybe take a rest from it, but try again with a new strategy and see if you can make that channel work for you. Because a lot of the times you probably can. You just got to keep keep, keep trying.

STEPHANIE: Oh, definitely. I mean, again, I'm going to go back to social media because it's what I really well. And I think I said this on a podcast with I believe it was Kim, but we were just talking about how different your customers can or even your prospects can react to your campaigns. I have posted stuff on social media that I'm like, yeah, this is going to be a hit and people are going to engage with it and there's crickets. And then I will post something that I'm like, oh, this is just filler content and it practically goes viral. So you never know until you actually run those tests because your customers and prospects can really surprise you with what they engage with.

SAM: For sure, I've written what I thought was a banger email many times did not get the response I was looking for. So, you know, I feel you with that one, Stephanie.

STEPHANIE: I mean, if we all got a bonus for moments like those, I'd have already retired. All right. Before I move on to direct metrics, let's quickly talk about some testing that can be done to improve campaign performance. So, Sam, what are some things that you would test to improve open rates on email marketing campaigns since that is something so well?

SAM: Yeah, I think something I've learned over time is I find the most success in taking a look at who I'm targeting factors like engagement, persona, buying stage, those can all affect open rates. So I think meeting people where they're at in their journey is really, really helpful. But I also would test, you know, things like subject lines to determine what actually drives them to open an email. Does using comedy in the subject line drive them to open it, maybe some emojis, or do they like to be shown value in the subject line? I'd really, you know, dig into those different types of things. And then lastly, who's the email from? Is this from a marketing alias? Is it from, you know, a human persona? Sometimes that can make a big difference too you'd be surprised.

STEPHANIE: No, and actually Sam, or not Sam, Summer made a really good point on the last podcast episode where we were talking about marketing data and lists, and she kept reiterating the point about meeting customers where they're at. And you just said that too. And I think that's so important for us to keep in mind, especially as we are running tests and looking at the data, making sure that whatever message you're sending out matches where that person is in the buyer's journey. Like you would never want someone who downloaded an e-book and then saw you ready to buy. Like, no, they're not. Like they still need that time to move down the funnel.

SAM: Totally!

STEPHANIE: All right. So we just talked about things that you would test in email. Typically, emails are sending people to a specific landing page on a website. So if you started noticing that, let's say, bounce rates were pretty high, you wanted to decrease that. What are some things that you would test to decrease those bounce rates on a campaign landing page?

SAM: Yeah, that's a good question. And I'd say, if people are bouncing on a landing page like your first want to isolate the problem and I'll just tell a little story because we ran into this problem this week and it's not an uncommon problem. So I'm sure everyone has a similar story. But this last week, we launched a new product feature and what that a new product page on our website and we made an announcement via email to our customers and prospects that linked back to that product page. And we immediately noticed that people were clicking the get a demo button in the navigation bar of our website rather than clicking the CTA on the page. And after some investigation, we determined it was because the CTA on the landing page was below the fold. So when a user hits the page, the first button they saw was not the one we ultimately wanted them to click. So, you know, we ultimately were able to fix that pretty quickly. But with that being said, you know, people are going to bounce off a page for many, many reasons. That's just one example. But I would test things like, you know, again, the call to action on the page, what that even says or what that button color is, really draw their attention towards it so that they don't leave. Also, the copy on the page, the headlines, the layout, the imagery you're using, I think on pages like again, a book, a demo page, adding some sort of social proof to kind of get them in that moment so they don't bounce off is really, really it can be successful. But, you know, a likely scenario, which I just touched on is if they have access to navigation or another page, they're pretty likely to go explore and see what else is out there. So if you want to convert them on a page like again, get a demo page that's very top of mind for me. I would maybe want to run a test and see if taking the navigation off that page or other resources off that page would help them convert and not bounce off that page.

STEPHANIE: That's fair. I think that actually leads really nicely into my next question. So how do you feel about navigation on landing pages? I've worked on marketing teams where, you know, say we're doing some sponsored content or we're running a, you know, pay-per-click ad on a third-party website. We're sending people back to a landing page to download an e-book. I've worked on teams like no navigation anywhere, like no, this is the only page they can get to. And other teams that are like, well, but if the messaging doesn't land, they can still go click on other parts of the website. So how do you feel about keeping navigation on landing pages, or does it depend on the intent of the landing page?

SAM: Yeah well, I think it's funny you ask that because last week I think I would have said keep navigation on all landing pages because, you know, you do want them to be able to kind of explore your site, create their own journey. If they see something that catches their attention, that's not initially catching their attention on the page, you sent them to let them go check it out. But I will say, after my little kerfuffle this week, I think I'd say keep the navigation only on pages that you view as like an entry point to your website or as like a piece of education or a point of education maybe is what I'm trying to say. Sure so, for example, like an e-book page, if you just want them to download the asset, maybe you still want them to go explore and see what else is out there. But on pages that you are directly trying to drive a conversion like again, get a demo page. I think taking the navigation off that page is probably where I would lean towards. So then that way they can stay on that page and convert on that page.

STEPHANIE: No, and that's very valid. I mean, I think, again, we're kind of aligned on that. I can definitely see if you're sending someone to an infographic or even just registering for a webinar, maybe you want that navigation. So they can kind of look across it, see all the dropdown options in case their brand new to your organization, maybe they just kind of want to get a quick understanding of like, well, wait, what do you actually sell? Do I want to attend this webinar? Like, I'm not in the market for that product. So this webinar obviously isn't for me. So they can quickly learn about you. And then they might still download it or they might bounce off. But that probably wasn't the customer for you anyway. So no harm there. All right. Let's kick off our discussion topic item number two with direct mail. I mean, it's what we do. We've got to talk about it. So, Sam, what metrics should marketers track when sending direct mail marketing campaigns?

SAM: I'd say the easiest thing to measure is probably the response and conversion rate that'll give you a pretty good idea of the effectiveness of a direct mail campaign. So measuring the number of people who respond to your direct mail campaign through something like a QR code or coupon code or a trackable URL. Again, just making sure those are unique to that campaign. So you can track them would be pretty important for that tactic. But I think the thing we're all familiar with is ROI. So comparing the revenue generated to the cost of the campaign and if you're unsure how to do this because with direct mail, there can be a number of factors to take into consideration like postage and printing. You know, that's a lot that goes into it and it can be tricky to calculate on your own. So if you do need help, we do have an ROI calculator on Lob.com that helps with that exact problem.

Calculate your direct mail ROI: Lob's direct mail ROI calculator

STEPHANIE: Look at you telling people how to calculate their ROI with direct mail. So what about another? Not exactly direct, but maybe non-digital channel: out of home advertising. What metrics should marketers be looking at that?

SAM: Yeah out of home to me, and this is my take on it, but it's mostly in most oftentimes a brand plane. So you can measure general website traffic and see if there's an uptick. But if you're able to add, again, a unique QR code, a phone number, a link, I would track visits or conversions that way. And I actually heard once and I don't know if this is true, but maybe someone gut check me. If companies who run out-of-home campaigns usually see a huge uptick in job applications for open roles. So yeah, I thought that was interesting. So I don't know, let me know if you've seen that.

STEPHANIE: But, but I mean, I guess it kind of makes sense because if they're able to afford billboard advertising, they probably the company must be doing pretty well. Since we already kind of were talking about our ROI, the investment that goes into direct mail. Do you think some marketers are wary of direct marketing because results aren't as instantaneous or real-time as, let's say, you know, email? Like you can send an email and immediately see the results, whereas direct mail you might invest quite a bit in covering that postage, the design, getting it out into the mail and then waiting for people to get it and then take action. What do you think?

SAM: Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head. Direct marketing can be a big investment in sitting with the uncertainty of whether or not the tactic worked can be unsettling. And, you know, with digital, I can launch a campaign, like you said or an email, and I'm able to check daily or even hourly if that's performing and if it's not for, you know, a lot of things, I can turn it off or iterate. But direct marketing doesn't offer that luxury. So I could definitely see there being some sort of hesitation towards investing in direct marketing.

STEPHANIE: For sure. And I think, you know, having the right tool or software can make that a lot easier. Excuse me. So what tools or software do you think that marketers should use to track their direct mail marketing campaigns?

SAM: I'd say use whatever is available to you. In our case, we will use Marketo. But, you know, like we just touched on, direct marketing isn't always straightforward to measure. So using anything that can provide some sort of insight as to how the campaign is performing is probably a good starting place for others. That might be HubSpot or Google Analytics. I don't know. Stephanie, what have you used in the past?

STEPHANIE: I have definitely dabbled in Marketo and HubSpot and I also think, you know, luckily at like Lob, we connect with so many different systems too that it makes direct mail so much easier. We also provide our own back-end analytics that then play nicely with your own campaign performance. So you really get that holistic view, especially again, if using a tool like Marketo, you can run, you know, your lead reports and seeing what campaign, you can quickly break it out by what channel. Assuming you have someone as amazing as our own marketing ops person, Scott, who has been on the podcast before. Making sure that you have set those programs up correctly so that you're making sure that the attribution goes to the right marketing tactic and channel.

SAM: That's a really good call out.

STEPHANIE: But keeping the conversation on direct mail. If it were up to you, what kind of tests would you run to improve results on direct mail marketing campaigns?

SAM: That's a good question. And I really love this question because I think there's so much to play around with when it comes to testing direct mail. But I would try just testing different formats. So even just different sizes of a format. I'm a fan of postcards. I have a few on my desk right now, but I won't dig through them to show you. But I would try sending different sizes, so maybe a 6 by 9 postcard might stand out a little bit better than a 4 by 6. So I would test that and see if you can draw any conclusions. And then, you know, the biggest thing that draws people to take action on a mail piece is the offer. So does buy one, get one free offer, convert better than a 50% off offers. So kind of testing the copy and positioning around that. And then, you know, it's important to test how to redeem that offer. Do you get more conversions through a QR code versus a URL? You'd have to test it out. So really the list goes on. But the thing to remember and I keep repeating myself, but you need to isolate your testing variables. So you can draw an accurate conclusion and use those findings for future campaigns.

STEPHANIE: No, definitely. And I love your point about the offer. It was, oh, gosh, probably like five years ago now that I was a content marketing conference and they were talking about A/B testing on the offer. And it was this whole point about does a percentage off work better than a dollar amount? And it was just such an interesting thing because, you know, marketing psychology, I love that topic. I think it's so fun to understand what makes people take action, but is essentially saying, I believe that if it was like a smaller dollar amount, you should always do a percentage off because it seems like you're getting more of a deal. Whereas if your piece is a, you know, bigger investment, doing a dollar amount off makes people really understand really quickly, like, oh, OK, I'm getting $100 off 500 instead of like 10% like, OK, well, let me think about what that is. But it just it's very interesting the different things that you can test. And again, your customers and leads can really surprise you in what they engage with.

SAM: Definitely and I think like testing those factors on different demographics and age groups and stuff would really surprise you too. So I'd say test it all, see what you come up with.

STEPHANIE: But you never know. You never know what your customers are going to do. And over time your customer base is probably going to change. And how they react to things will also change.

SAM: Yes, everything is always changing. Change is the only constant.

STEPHANIE: Right so I think you've probably already kind of answered this question. But in our own State of Direct Mail Consumer Insights report, we do ask those taking the survey what type of direct mail is most engaging, and it found that postcards are most impactful for those aged 35 to 54 when compared to other generations. Sam, I know you mentioned postcards, but is that what actually works best for you compared to, let's say, a self mailer, a letter or a catalog?

SAM: Yeah guilty. I like postcards, but I think that's because I can get all the information in a single glance, which is really great for busy people like me and oftentimes people 35 to 54. But, you know, if the postcard is important or exciting enough, which, you know, it could be an appointment reminder important or an exciting offer that I want to redeem. I'll put it on my fridge and trust me, I do. And I have piles on my desk. I have them everywhere. But, you know, I'm not really going to put a letter on my fridge. I'm not going to hold on to that and I'll probably end up tossing it. So for me, I'm team postcard. I also love an image, so if you can throw an image on there, I'm happy with it.

STEPHANIE: I'm team postcard too. I don't. I don't need you to write me a letter unless it's, you know, from my doctor's office being like, you owe us money. Like, OK, hide that. I don't want that on a postcard.

SAM: So I don't want that one either.

STEPHANIE: So talking about direct mail, how do you recommend that marketers fill in the gaps or their marketing touchpoints on a digital marketing journey with direct mail? Does that channel really fit in and act as a complement to digital marketing?

SAM: Absolutely and there are many ways to incorporate direct mail into a digital journey, and we actually have data that suggests that direct mail is most impactful when used alongside your digital channels. I think only, oh man, I hope I don't get this wrong. I think only 5% of marketers are using direct mail as a standalone tactic.

STEPHANIE: Five or eight, I don't know, eight stands out, but it's less than ten.

SAM: So I guess what I'm getting at is using direct mail and digital two together is a really great plan. In fact, marketing teams that use digital channels see an average of a 1% to 2% response rate. But when you incorporate direct mail into that mix, the average response rate goes up to 27% So to me, it's a no brainer to find somewhere to plug it in along that digital journey. But I would take a start by looking at your campaign as a whole and determining where in that customer journey they should receive a high-touch marketing tactic like direct mail. For me, I'd probably want to send a couple of emails, launch an ad campaign maybe, or something like that before I send a direct mail piece, because I want to narrow down my audience, see who's engaging with the emails and ads but not converting, and then send them a special offer via mail. As we noted before, you know, direct marketing, direct mail marketing is a more expensive channel sometimes. So you want to be strategic about who you're targeting and what that message is. And I think it's a great, you know, tactic to use as a tipping point, but you have to determine who to send it to and what message is really going to drive them home.

STEPHANIE: No, I love that. All right. So we talked about digital metrics and direct mail metrics, but now I want to talk about how we can look at our data as a whole and create high performing campaigns across all of our channels. So, Sam, how do you think marketing teams can work cross-functionally to share data and interpretations of that data?

SAM: That is a great question because I have noticed that cross-functional teams don't always care what we're doing in marketing, but how we're doing. I don't know if you've experienced that too, but I think the most important thing to take into consideration is making sure we're speaking the same language. Data can be overwhelming to begin with, so if you don't know what you're looking at, things can easily get misinterpreted. And you know, if I'm talking to you, Stephanie, or the rest of the marketing team, we pretty much all speak the same language. So I can share some sort of reporting dashboard that demonstrates campaign and channel reporting pretty granularly most of the time. And for the most part, you know, people will understand what they're looking at. However, if I'm talking to the rep or a salesperson, they likely want to know what our marketing efforts are driving for them, and they'll want to know how many MELs, MQLs, intro calls, opportunities, bookings we're driving for their team. So ideally I'd, I'd share some sort of dashboard with a straightforward visual representation so that I can share that information with them clearly. And everything goes down smoothly.

STEPHANIE: Visuals can make a difference when telling people what data and what the data means, like looking at a pie chart, you can quickly understand like, OK, this is good where like, oh, this was 44.8%. Like, is that good or bad? What does that mean exactly?

SAM: Labels are really helpful to just to make sure everyone's interpreting the data correctly.

STEPHANIE: All right. So we've talked about data interpretation. How do you think that marketers can harness the results from one channel and apply those learnings to another channel? Like, let's say we're taking the results of an A/B email test and trying them on direct mail.

SAM: Well, each channel is going to have its own nuances and your audience is going to respond differently to different channels like we touched on before. Again, even if the messaging is the same, but I think you can use your A/B test results as a good starting point across channels. So for example, if you ran an A/B test on an email and came to the conclusion that, you know, the CTA "claim your offer" drove more conversions than "get it now," you know, then I would maybe use that language on the direct mail piece and see what happens. But ideally I would test, you know, the winning CTA from my email test against another one and always be testing and understanding what works best in that channel in that context.

STEPHANIE: No, that's fantastic. All right. So talking about, like attribution and tracking. We know the importance of UTMs in marketing campaigns. But do you think they're equally important for both digital and traditional marketing tactics? Or are they more important in one type? Like I might say that they're more important in direct mail marketing or out-of-home advertising to track conversions without a digital trail. But I'm curious what you think.

SAM: I like your take on that. I'm a little suspicious, but you do bring up a good point that direct and out-of-home advertising don't offer a digital trail. But I'm not sure I have strong feelings on one over the other, per se. But, you know, I guess my piece of advice would be to use your terms whenever possible just to ensure that you're tracking is accurate.

STEPHANIE: No and I think that's a very valid statement. I mean, we work on a team that is obsessed with UTMs and making sure that we can really get a quick understanding of, again, what channels are actually driving action for this campaign that spans email span, social spans, PPC. We're using all of our different tactics. OK, let's make sure that we're actually seeing what channels are driving the best results.

SAM: Definitely

STEPHANIE: So would you recommend that marketers run A/B test simultaneously across digital and traditional tactics? Like would you run an A/B split email campaign that sends recipients to an A/B split landing page?

SAM: I mean, I'm skeptical again. No, but yes, like hypothetically, you could. You know, I've mentioned this a few times, but it's important to me to have a controlled variable when you're running an experiment. So you can pinpoint exactly what is driving the outcome. So, yes, technically you could run an A/B test on an email and direct them to an A/B split landing page experience. But you know, in that context alone, you probably wouldn't have as much confidence in your results, which to me doesn't seem super productive. So again, just isolating certain variables once you've come to a conclusion on that, adding in that additional factor, I think you'll find the most confidence in your results that way.

STEPHANIE: No and I think that's fantastic, especially, you know, we work in a world right now where marketing teams are getting smaller. We're asked to do more. So unless you have a team of data scientists that are all that can actually prove statistically that these two tests were the ones that worked. Otherwise, keep it simple. That is what I always think with our marketing. Like, let's make it simple as possible for ourselves to track our results as well as for our customers to take action.

SAM: For sure.

STEPHANIE: All right, Sam, do you have any final thoughts that you want to share or is there anything that we didn't get to today?

SAM: On the spirit of running A/B tests. I'd love to hear how other marketers are running tests. So what variables you're testing, what channels you're testing them on, and what are your results? Let me know. I love to chat about it. Could be fun. We could have margaritas.

STEPHANIE: More margaritas! All right. Well, Thank you so much for joining us. And to our listeners, thank you as well for joining us for mixers and marketing. If you're curious about diving deeper into metrics and the analysis of direct mail, please feel free to download your copy of The Modern Marketer's Guide to Direct Mail Analytics and Testing at https://lobdemo.co/analytics-guide, that's lobdemo.co/analytics-guide. We hope you'll join us again as we talk about all things marketing and enjoy your next drink. As always, you can browse our library of episodes over at lobdemo.co/lobcast. Thanks for listening. And that's all, folks.

SAM: Thanks, Stephanie.