Lobcast Podcast: 2023 State of Direct Mail & Spritzes

STEPHANIE: Hello and welcome to the Lobcast Podcast: Mixers and Marketing. I'm Stephanie Donelson, your hostess with the marketing mostess, and I'm the senior content marketing manager here at Lob. I'm thrilled to be joined again with my Senior Director of Content, Kim Courvoisier, here. Welcome, Kim.

KIM: Hi! My hand appeared out of thin air.

STEPHANIE: Thanks for being on the show! I know how excited you are to talk about industry research and the key findings. But do you mind giving our listeners some background information on the 2023 State of Direct Mail report first?

KIM: Yeah, absolutely. For Lob's annual State of Direct Mail, we partnered with compare media to understand how enterprise marketers use direct mail to drive growth, how they measure its impact on marketing budgets are changing, and what the future holds for the channel. We also look at the differences between the responses between those who automate direct mail and those who don't.

STEPHANIE: Awesome! Well, thank you for setting the stage as we talk about the key findings today. But first, let's tell our listeners about the cocktail pairing for today's episode spritzers. So to make this at home, you'll need only three ingredients. You'll need white wine club soda and a lemon peel. Pour 3/4 cup of your white wine of choice. I'm going with the vinho verde here is it already has a little bit of effervescence to it. And then you'll top it with a 1/4 cup of club soda and then drop in a lemon Ryan for garnish, if you wish. So, cheers and welcome to the show!

KIM: Good choice on the vinho verde!

STEPHANIE: It was a good choice. It was one that we drink a lot in Portugal. So very excited.

KIM: A little summer here in the middle of winter here.

STEPHANIE: I've still got like seven inches of snow outside my house.

KIM: So you brought summer in your glass!

STEPHANIE: I did. All right. So made our drinks. And now it's onto the main course of today's episode. So kicking us off, let's talk about a very cool statistic related to marketing. Our way to the 2023 state of direct mail report found that 74% of marketers agree that direct mail delivers the best ROI, response rate, and conversion rate than all of the channels used. Kim that stat has increased from 2022, right?

KIM: It has. In 2022, 67% of marketers agreed that direct mail delivered the highest rely so that 74% that actually we see a 7% increase year-over-year, which is super exciting. If you're in the direct mail industry, we are

STEPHANIE: at a super and say exciting like honestly being a social media manager, I would love to see 7% engagement rate across all of our channels, 7% increase in followers month after month. Right? OK. Oh, go ahead.

KIM: I said we'll take it.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, we'll definitely take that. I was going to say, you know, it's really interesting not only to see that stat just applied to everyone in the survey, but then it was really cool to see how direct mail performs in certain industries because our report showed that 84% of marketers in financial services and banking report that direct mail shows the best ROI of all the channels their company uses. And 87% in the e-commerce segment agreed that direct mail show is the best ry of all the channels their company uses. Kim, do you think those industries are naturally a good fit for direct mail marketing, or do you think those marketers have just found the golden ticket when creating direct mail?

KIM: I love this question and I'm going to give you such a marketing response to say, Stephanie, it depends. And I'll unpack that a little bit. So our lives are influenced by so many factors, and what we see in financial services and banking is also a high adoption rate of technology and automation, which can be very influential. Right, in increasing those key performance indicators. And as you'd expect, e-commerce by very nature is digital first. So it's well positioned for omnichannel marketing. The report showed that only 7% of marketers are using direct mail as a standalone tactic, and 72% are using it alongside email marketing, which you and I have talked about a ton on the podcast. How email marketing and direct mail are best days, right? They go together so well and really complement each other. So we're really seeing this convergence of the digital and the physical spawning, a new term, which is one of my favorite phygital.

STEPHANIE: Now, you are all over that term. You love it.

KIM: I did. I did. I was like, oh!

STEPHANIE: But I think that's a very interesting idea because I think when we as marketers look at our customers and consumer behavior, it really does change based on technology and what we have available at the time. Because like, you know, as a kid, I remember Saturday morning, get up, we're doing our errands, we're going to go get our groceries, then we're going to go to the mall. And like I hated going to malls. My mom had to try on every single pair of shoes possible, and then my dad took forever picking out his t shirts, whereas my parents can go on Amazon and have that sent right to their home. So Saturday errands don't exist in my family anymore, you know? And it's just a very weird thing because now. And I also think the pandemic kind of had an impact on it, too, because, yes, we were all stuck at home, we were all shopping online. Then as soon as you could go back out into the real world, people went back to the stores because they just want to get out of their houses.

KIM: Yeah

STEPHANIE: You have to meet the needs of those different types of consumers. Those who do want the physical store or physical marketing pieces as well as the digital channels.

KIM: Absolutely everyone thrives and needs that connectedness and that connections that are real and physical, right.

STEPHANIE: Yeah and like all of our channels, at the end of the day, it's all about getting our consumers to take action. Right but what about from the marketers perspective? Let's talk a little bit about how marketers are measuring direct mail ROI. So our 2023 state of direct mail report found that the top five methods included 46% citing individual customer activity within a specific time period, 41% citing the use of a QR code, 37% citing a personalized URL, 36% sighting orders for featured products or services, and 34% citing the use of a coupon code. So Kim, did any of those methods surprise you in where they fall in that lineup?

KIM: Well, interestingly enough, the use of personalized URLs or what we call pURLs decreased from 48% in 2022. And we talked a lot again in our recent podcasts about the use of and they pointed last time the runway of QR codes like this one here. Right and the data shows that they're still going strong. In fact, I've been on calls where people will pull out their phones to be like, hey, let me get that right now, which is exactly why we have it here right now. And I predict that we'll see more companies testing out 1 to 1 QR codes versus how QR codes are being used now, which is more of generic, more math type of a QR code and Lob's actually rolling out that functionality this year. So right there, right in time.

STEPHANIE: Definitely and I think that actually makes a really good point. Also, again, going back to how technology changes, you know, marketing used to kind of be that spray and pray marketing. You sent out a generic message to everyone. And then as segmentation got better, OK, I can narrow my messaging down to consumers who bought in the last three months or I can message consumers who have engaged engage with us in six. And so even just rolling out the one to one QR codes, we're getting a lot more segmented with our targeting. We're getting a lot more segmented with our ability to attribute results from that consumer from the specific campaign.

KIM: Exactly and just think about how you would customize offers with that, right?

STEPHANIE: Right? All right.

KIM: It's pretty powerful

STEPHANIE: It's personal opinion time you personally, what drives you to take action on something? Scanning a QR code, visiting a personalized landing page. Typing in a coupon code at checkout?

KIM: Yeah so like many people, we've talked about this a bunch too. I love a deal and I'm a big user of the home, plug-in when I'm shopping online and it automatically looks for coupon code or I check out like I don't even have to think about. I don't go hunting around for it. So that's super powerful. And I admit, I have been scanning QR codes more and more these days as a quick way of getting to that offer or getting to that page without having to type something in or go to anything. And I think I'm just more aware of it because I'm in the industry, but I'm also seeing QR codes everywhere and every piece of mail I get. I'm seeing it on billboards now. So I think this proliferation of QR codes is almost a forcing function to use them more. We'll see what the adoption rate from an end user kind of consumer standpoint looks at because that's still lagging.

STEPHANIE: Yeah I mean, that makes me think, you know, we are used to seeing QR codes. Again, in your own opinion, if you were to scan a QR code on a piece of mail and it takes you to an online store, are you actually going to finish your shopping experience there or are you going to look and then go on to a desktop or laptop? Just curious.

KIM: It depends, right? So if it's something I've already like, if they're retargeting me, possibly I might be more apt because I've already kind of done that research mode.

STEPHANIE: That's fair.

KIM: So if it's something maybe I've been looking at, I'm trying to think of an example right now because a lot of things, it might be something I've been shopping for recently. Right and then all of a sudden it comes up and there we go. And I'm on the page I can't find. So I think in there I'd have a greater propensity to go ahead and convert at that point versus going and maybe coming back again.

STEPHANIE: I just think it's a really cool conversation because yeah, like I don't like completing purchases on my phone unless it's in like the Amazon app. Like, otherwise I need to go, I want to look at it. I want to see it big and beautiful on my computer cause I actually, I just got a retargeting ad from a mega brand that I was poking around looking at, but I need to see their shade selections in a nice picture. I can't be zooming in on my phone and be like, yeah, but like, you know how quickly that can go wrong.

KIM: Do you shop much from like Instagram?

STEPHANIE: Actually there's the episode and Summer and I were talking about that and you know, we were just talking about how easily how easy people find it just to scroll past ads. One did catch my attention recently, and it was because it was like a story that was themed around like nostalgic 1990s thing. So it was like all these references and like that caught my attention. But otherwise, nope, I'm pretty trained to be like spot and like, not

KIM: It's so funny because we're in a different age demographic. And I am I must have been tempted to get off Instagram, so I quit buying things. But yeah, well, very interesting behaviors.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, well, it is very different. And I think it's also again, just comes down to personal preferences as well because like my husband has no problem finishing purchases on his phone and we're both millennials, we both have grown up in that era of having our phones attached to our fingertips at all times. If I leave my house without it, I'm like, Oh my god, I'm going to get lost. Whereas like I started driving back in like the early 2000s, like I could definitely get around. I remember printing off directions from MapQuest!

KIM: Oh, yeah, that MapQuest!

STEPHANIE: You didn't have anything! But now I'm like, nope, I would just be completely useless without my phone. But I'm still like you. Like, I think if it was a brand that I had already engaged with before and they were just following up like we caught you taking a peek, take 20% off, scan the QR code to get back to your shopping cart. OK I would probably complete my purchase there, but if it's a new brand, I want to be able to do my research on my laptop.

KIM: And we'll have some more research coming out later this year or actually, this summer around how consumers are interacting with these different types of offers like coupon codes, QR codes, et cetera in our state of direct mail, consumer insights, that comes out in July. So we'll definitely have a lot more like data points and insights around that coming soon. So stay tuned!

STEPHANIE: Maybe I should be questioned for this to throw all their data off! Who is this 80-year-old?

KIM: I don't think you're a part of it because you're in this industry.

STEPHANIE: Like this lady has the consumer habits of an older person, but here she is.

KIM: I will not be offended by the older person.

STEPHANIE: Going back to your question, like, again, I'm definitely a coupon code person. Like I love getting emails, direct mail, even offers on social media that give me a code to enter at checkout. I will copy and paste that, drop it into my notes and I will make sure that I use that at the end. Instead of potentially like scanning a QR code, I want to be able to be able to tippy type and do my research and then paste that in at the end.

KIM: Tippy type. OK. I love it.

STEPHANIE: All right. Kind of following those trains of thought, do you think we're going to see a lot more A/B testing on those measurement methods in the coming year, like comparing a personalized URL to a QR code or a coupon code? Honestly, I'm a bit surprised that coupon codes did not score higher, and maybe that's just because I'm personally offended since I love using them. But I'd be curious to see if that method does get tested more. What do you think?

KIM: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, in my own terms, because I like to make them up. As you saw how I glommed onto phygital, I think 2023 for direct mail is like the year of optimization, right? Like optimization will reign supreme. As more companies engage with automation, direct mail platforms continue to test and optimize their tracking and their attribution models. And one way, like with better tracking is this one to 1, whether it be QR codes or barcodes, which are already seeing some of our customers beta test with excellent results. So, you know, you started this whole podcast with 74% of marketers are key stat from this report say that direct mail delivers their best response rate conversion an hour away. So if the channel is working like if they go for broke with it, right, you're going to continue to invest in it. But as marketers, you and I, every time we have a successful piece of content, we're not like, OK, awesome, let's get a piece up there the quarter. No, we're going to be like, what's the next step? We have to top that. We have to do an even better piece of content. And that, I feel like, is in every marketer's DNA, this insatiable thirst to just like go after it and do it better. And so 2023 will definitely be the year of optimization.

STEPHANIE: So you just talked a little bit about that finding around ROI. Now let's focus on the I-part of that, the investment. So, let's talk about some key findings from the 2023 state of direct mail report that focus on marketing budgets. So our report showed that 58% of marketers have more marketing budget allocated to direct mail compared to 2022. Again, Kim, I ask you, does that surprise you?

KIM: Yes, absolutely. With the economic environment. I really wasn't sure what to expect when we asked this question around marketing budgets this year. You know, I know many of us are on round four, five, six, seven, maybe even eight of our marketing budgets right now, and it's only Q1. So that's pretty impressive. And based on the response, you know, and conversion rate, and ROI. That 74% that we started with, it isn't necessarily surprising that people are investing more money in direct mail because as we just said, it's working. So that's kind of a no brainer. When a channel works, use it. Plus, on the flip side of that coin was inflation, you know, rising paper costs because of paper shortages from the pandemic and then postal costs rising. We are having to spend more to get the same or better result. That's just a fact of life right now. That's kind of the reality.

STEPHANIE: No, definitely. And I think that's kind of interesting, you know, especially as we talk more in the macroeconomic world about the return to office. You know, a lot of people are heading back out into the world, leaving the house where you would have thought like direct mail would have picked up as a channel back in like 2020 because, you know, everybody's home, you know exactly where they are. But it still proves that it's a valuable channel no matter what's happening in the world, because people are still excited to get their mail. They might even want to be taking a break from a device or their screen. What have you, not being bombarded with constant digital messages or again, living past those sponsored posts, being like, OK, cool. But like, what else do you got for me? So really, since we are looking that, you know, that 58% statistic marketers are budgeting for this channel, how much are they allocating? So Kim, do you have a statistic of how much budget marketers are setting aside for direct mail marketing?

KIM: So I don't have a number, obviously, because it depends. It depends. But 69%, almost 70% have up to 25% of their total marketing budget allocated to direct mail. 20% have 26 to 50% of their total marketing budget allocated to direct mail, and 11% of more than 50% of their overall marketing budget allocated to direct mail. So I need to be OK because that's pretty slick. But what's going to be critical, right, when we look at this investment with a capital I, is for marketers to be able to track, measure and attribute their efforts and prove its value. Because when it comes time to get these budgets again for next year, if you can't prove its value, you're not going to have any legs to stand on. That has to work.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, no doubt. But I think as marketers, we're all used to having to be like, no, no, no, but look at all these leads. This campaign and this specific channel drove like, please give me a budget for it again next year.

KIM: 100%

STEPHANIE: All right. So, we know, marketers are willing to bet their budgets on the channel, but we didn't see that 26% of marketers cited budget constraints as one of the top direct mail challenges. The other top two? 36% of marketers said poor response rates and 32% of marketers had bad address data. But let's tackle that budget constraints first. Kim, what would you say are three things that marketers should account for when creating the budget for their direct mail marketing?

KIM: Yeah, so traditionally, and I know you've written about this extensively, direct mail hasn't been the most technology forward medium, but automated direct mail, different automation and technology will enable you to create and ship your campaigns in days, not weeks or months. So right there you have an immediate impact scenario. I write because you can produce your campaigns, get them out the door, getting results more quickly. You've also got an impact on time as it relates to people and bandwidth, as it will usually require less people power and definitely less manual work when you use technology and get that in your corner. And thirdly, when you have flat rate pricing, you can model out your cost and know exactly how much you're going to spend. So it's easier to forecast your cost and calculate your ROI at the end of the day. And one of the things that the report showed is that people aren't necessarily having real budget constraints. They were just more concerned with getting that budget and proving its value. And if they weren't using technology, it was a lot harder to prove that early.

STEPHANIE: Yeah well, I think it's also just harder in general to manage all those costs, especially if you were doing it manually. You had to work with the printer, you had to then get your postage calculated, and then, OK, how are you getting it from the printer into the mail and managing all of that where instead you can just do it through one technology where just tells you, OK, this was what you paid per piece. How many pieces did you send? A little bit of math. There you go. There was your cost. And I'd be like, hey, John from printer one like, how many pieces do we do? How much was it? Oh, and then how much was postage on top of that, how much was delivery. Oh

Kim: Yeah. More and more and more. That makes me want to take a big swig of this. Like, if I go to all that manual process and people and. Yeah, it's so much better and easier now.

STEPHANIE: Yeah so listeners, if you are really interested in that conversation, Summer Hahnlen, our direct mail expert in residence. She and I really went into depth on budgeting for direct mail marketing. So if you're interested, give that one to listen. Mix up a beermosa and join us.

KIM: Episode 7, right?

STEPHANIE: Four, that was episode four.

KIM: Oh!

STEPHANIE: Yep. Good thing I know these off the top of my head. Definitely. So going back to some of the direct mail challenges. Another one again was that bad address data. And I think that's where our complimentary software has really come in to help marketers because we have address verification that can clean up address data, ensure mail is deliverable, and reduce that return to sender rate. So let's also address the other direct mail challenge marketers cited for response rates. Let's say you were a consultant, Kim, and you were asked to help a team improve their direct mail response rates. What are a few things that you would take a closer look at? Oh, Kim, you're on mute.

KIM: Funny enough, I get asked this all the time. Sorry for the wine kicking in. It's actually that. But so here's my two cents. If you want to improve your response rate, you have to look at a few different element. Are you sending batch campaigns and buybacks? I mean, more generic? Are you sending personalized campaigns? And now what consumers really expect and want personalization. So if you're only sending that, you're likely to see a near immediate improvement in response simply by using smart, smart personalization tactics like using imagery of a recently purchased items like that shampoo that you bought recently that you might be running low on to get their attention. And then next, think about your ability. As we've talked a bit about tracking and attributing those results, what our data told us is that the marketers aren't getting poor response rate. On the contrary, you know, you keep going back to that 74% stat. You know, it's really that opposite the data saying that marketers aren't confident in their ability to measure and track. And the root of that problem is in our survey numbers, only 40% of the marketers that we talked to were using a technology or automation solution to help them out. So they're essentially falling behind. And that's really tough.

STEPHANIE: No, and I think that is an interesting point, especially given some of the other technology that we've talked about in blogs or other e-books like UTM tracking. That's an easy way around that kind of problem. Build out your parameters for your campaign. And granted, that is also relying on the end customer to use that. Like, for example, I could get a postcard with a 1 to one QR code, but if I see their website or maybe their social media handles, I go that route and you can't directly attribute that. Even though that is what got me into your campaign or your marketing funnel, what have you.

KIM: Absolutely that's why we hear, you know, and marketers are looking at these things and they might also be using a secondary way of like this offered during this time frame when that offer was valid. So they have a backup plan, right?

STEPHANIE: And that's what Summer talked about on that budget and beermosas episode, just making sure that attribution window is as long as it can be. So that you're accurately reflecting the weight that campaign carried.

KIM: Yeah, super smart.

STEPHANIE: All right. So finally, let's talk about the bigger picture in marketing, not just the direct mail channel. Direct mail isn't a siloed marketing tactic, and it's often paired with other channels. So according to our 2023 data direct mail report, it shows that in an omnichannel marketing strategy, 72% of marketers said they paired direct mail with email, 46% pair it with social media and 45% pair it with SMS or MMS and 25% pair direct mail with a podcast and 21% pair with organic social. Those stats were kind of crazy to me as these marketers are pioneers in pairing direct mail with certain channels. We have talked at length in multiple podcast episodes about pairing direct mail and email because they just seem like such a natural fit. You know, you've got your direct and you've got your electronic version. But I am loving the insight into partnering direct mail with paid social and SMS marketing, even organic, to really make sure that customers get every touch point possible with all of your different marketing campaigns. So, Kim, did any of those stat surprise you in how marketers are pairing direct mail with other online or offline channels?

KIM: I wasn't surprised by this one at all because of how much we talk about omnichannel marketing, how in-tune we are with our customers and seeing what they're doing and how prevalent it is, right? The email marketing example you gave and that 7% of marketers are using in direct mail to send that less than 7% are using it as a standalone tactic. Didn't surprise me at all. Actually, that's up about 2% over last year. I think last year it was five. So it's a little higher, but nothing significant, right? Still under 10% And we know how well direct mail works in tandem with other channels. What I think is interesting is that almost half are using social like you called out and a quarter are using it in conjunction with podcasts just like this one, which is quite cool. And I know we are we're using direct mail with this podcast, so that's really exciting.

STEPHANIE: Yeah, cool. I think that just goes back to get I'm going to repeat myself, but our repeated mantra of that direct mail, isn't it? Direct mail marketing is not a siloed channel. Most marketers I know don't simply rely on email or social media to reach their customers. They need different touch points to again, go back. Going back to our earlier conversation of just the different ways that we all behave and how we like to get our marketing messages and how we like to shop. You need to be able to reach those different customers on those different channels. So we have to use a variety of channels to reach our target audience where they spend their time. We cater our marketing to them and focus on giving them the best experience possible. So Kim, wasn't there a unique take on how marketers think about the customer experience with direct mail and modernizing the process of it?

KIM: Indeed there was! We asked the question verbatim, what do you, I'm going to read it: What do you want to modernize with existing direct mail processes? And marketers shared 14% wanted more appealing design, copywriting and call to action. 11% want to better integrate with their digital efforts. Another 11% want to adopt new technology. They should check out Lob. And 9% want to increase personalization. Right 52% of consumers want personalized experiences. So that's good and 7% want to use AI or automation. And by now I think we've all heard ChatGPT is taking over the world, right? So maybe that I would be good to check out. But what I think this data tells us is that marketers direct mail works. Now they want to further improve upon it and optimize it. As I said, the year of optimization. As we shared, there's a correlation between using technology and automation and being able to do more advanced things with your direct mail, like trigger-based campaigns, integrations with your CRM and marketing automation platforms, and using data for personalization, the ability to use the one to one QR codes and barcodes, address and identity verification, and so much more, which actually takes care of some of those problem areas that we heard about, like bad addresses and poor response rate and budgets, right? So it really does cover off and do those things that modern marketers are looking to do.

STEPHANIE: Yeah I mean, like, if I were surveyed for a report, I would definitely agree with all those points. An appealing design. Well-written copy and actionable CTA are so important, but it's not just for direct mail, it's for any marketing channel. Better integration is imperative for campaigns to succeed in today's market. Better personalization can make or break a campaign. If I get a postcard that's like, 'Hi Joanne!" Like what? Who? Who do you think you're going to find at this address?

KIM: I got a "Hi, First Name," the other day. I was like, oh no!

STEPHANIE: Did you really? Oh, my God. Oh, no.

KIM: Was not sent by us!

STEPHANIE: One of my coworkers one time, like, just came into the office crying because she was like, our email got sent out, and, like, the token was missing, like a closing bracket.

KIM: It has happened to all of us.

STEPHANIE: And that's exactly what we told her. Like, you know, if I could if I had $1 for every time I've missed a detail like that, I'd be in the Bahamas right now. But I also really like the point about the automation, the better tracking. I mean, I love a good Excel spreadsheet as much as the next marketer, but if my campaigns can run practically themselves and all I have to do is report out on the data and analyze it and understand what it's telling me. I'm going to be a much better marketer. While I can let the air automation do its thing in the background. Kim, did any of those findings stand out to you at all?

KIM: I mean, like you, I can definitely relate to the desire for better design and such a, you know, imagery world right now. And also like having beautiful, compelling imagery like strikes all of us, right? As a content marketing director, copy to me is right. Like having something that catches my attention, that stands out from all the noise. And then people in don't often we're limited by the platforms or lack thereof or the resources or lack thereof. And I have to say, if I had to design a direct mail, postcards, let's say today with no resources or technology, trust me, it would not be pretty. My my emotional support poodle down here could probably make it better than I can. And so, you know, having resources and help and simple platforms like, you know, Lob where we have pre-created templates that you can use and get up and running quickly are super essential for any stage or age of a company. So use the technology and use resources that are available to you because it'll make life easier. And then you just get to focus on the optimization.

STEPHANIE: No, no. I love any company that puts out templates. Like why would I sit there spinning my wheels trying to figure out how to do this when someone else is doing the work for me and I can go in and you to update my logo, I'm going to update the messaging that at least I know. Like once this all comes together, it's still going to be a nice design.

KIM: Well, one thing our audience doesn't know about you that I'll share with you are the do it yourself. But you could take a technology platform you've never used it, like teach it to yourself in an afternoon and put out like something amazing. So yeah, kudos to you for that.

STEPHANIE: I am definitely very do it yourself. You don't need to send me. Let Me Google That For You. OK, so before we close out this episode, Kim, do you have any final thoughts or anything you'd like to share that we didn't get to today?

KIM: I mean, we've covered a lot of ground. We've had a lot of laughter and fun. But I would definitely encourage our readers to scan the QR code, check out the State of Direct Mail for themselves. It covers a ton of things from a marketer's perspective, and we actually have a whole section dedicated to industry. So if you're in ecommerce or retail or insurance, health care and a couple others, you can see stats that are just related to your industry. So it's super specific. And then I'm also now starting work on our second annual State of direct mail consumer insight. So it's all going to be from a consumer's prospective. What do they think of direct mail? Do they like it? Do they love it? What kind of offers do they act on? And that'll be coming out early summer. So I'll be super keen to jump back on the podcast if you'll have me. And talk about that and share those results because I love any kind of consumer insights and geeking out on the data statement.

STEPHANIE: And those reports go so well together too, because it's great to see what your peers are doing in the industry and how they're measuring success and the different trends that they're using. But then it really is all about the consumers. Like marketers could be doing everything they want to, but if consumers aren't engaging with it or taking action on it, you're wasting your investment on it, essentially.

KIM: Totally, that's I mean, you said it in the podcast, we're doing this so that people will take action on it.

STEPHANIE: Right well, excellent. Again, thank you so much for joining us for drinks today as well. To our listeners, thank you for joining us for drinks and a chat about the state of direct mail. If you want to download a copy of the report, you can either scan Kim's QR code or you can do so at lobdemo.co/directmail2023 that's lobdemo.co/directmail2023. We hope you'll join us again to listen as we talk all things marketing and enjoy a mixed drink. As always, you can browse our library of episodes over at lobdemo.co/lobcast. Thanks for listening. And that's all, folks.